tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post3738845242469203728..comments2022-09-25T22:30:29.822-05:00Comments on Low-Carb for You: Observations on Protein Intake in Low-CarbersStargazeyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comBlogger74125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-82801159520709500382010-11-21T17:39:24.342-06:002010-11-21T17:39:24.342-06:00Fluxtopia Mars--I'm kind of at a loss to answe...Fluxtopia Mars--I'm kind of at a loss to answer your questions. I'm sensing that you don't quite understand the physiology of diabetes, but I don't know what kind of background you have.<br /><br />Perhaps you could do a little more reading on insulin signaling, insulin resistance and gluconeogenesis and that would help clear things up a bit.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-68877888034454664932010-11-21T04:35:30.687-06:002010-11-21T04:35:30.687-06:00In response to your idea, "I always thought t...In response to your idea, "I always thought that a zero carb diet would prevent diabetes, not lead to it,", wouldn't it all actually make perfect sense? Diabetes prevents the body from utilizing sugar (carbs), thus having no carbs in the diet would mimic the metabolism of diabetics in some ways? I'm no nutritional doctor, that's for sure, but maybe being diabetic has more to it than insulin, rather it sets up an unhealthy form of metabolism?Fluxtopia Marshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17834902269842035865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-49940935768098167172010-02-18T10:22:39.551-06:002010-02-18T10:22:39.551-06:00Good for you, Kate! I've just sent a question ...Good for you, Kate! I've just sent a question to Dr. Bernstein to get his opinion about zero carb diets, and perhaps he will answer it on his next web broadcast <a href="http://attendthisevent.com/?eventid=11075367" rel="nofollow">here</a>. It will happen at 6:50 PM on Wednesday, February 24.<br /><br />In any event, thanks for the testimonial. Perhaps it will warn someone about the dangers of assuming that if low-carb is good for preventing diabetes, zero carb will be even better. I hope you get back to excellent blood sugars very soon.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-82215360672090964872010-02-18T09:29:36.662-06:002010-02-18T09:29:36.662-06:00Hi Stargazey,
You are so right about the cult beh...Hi Stargazey,<br /><br />You are so right about the cult behavior over at ZC. They often say that people who have problems are not doing ZC the right way. Well I've been on beef and water with no seasonings and no cheats and eating only once or twice a day to hunger for over 13 months straight and unrestricted protein has only caused my fasting and post prandial blood sugar to sky rocket. Plus I've just gotten my fasting insulin tested and it was still high at 8.7 uIU/mL, something is obviously not working according to their theories! <br />I have kept track of my blood glucose during that time. I'm only in my 20s but my numbers look like those in your over 50s group. After more than a year, my fasting blood glucose has risen from a beautiful 81 mg/dL average to 102-124 mg/dL and my 120 minute post prandial blood glucose levels hover 140-160 mg/dL. I officially declare the ZC experiment over and am returning to VLC with restricted protein intake.Kate Minoguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18363377046398862918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-86103569341652301912009-08-30T17:07:00.037-05:002009-08-30T17:07:00.037-05:00Welcome to the blog, Cleora!
Because you have a P...Welcome to the blog, Cleora!<br /><br />Because you have a Ph.D., you're used to reading. :-) I'd recommend that you read this post, the one before it and the two after, plus all of the comments. Lots of good things were said, and you may find that some of them apply to your situation.<br /><br />As you probably realize, gluconeogenesis is the problem. If we eat an excess of protein, the body prefers to store the excess rather than letting it go to waste. Our bodies are able to store many of the amino acid building blocks of the protein in the form of fat. As an intermediate step, the body turns the glycogenic amino acids of the protein into glucose, which are eventually converted into fat. But fat synthesis takes time, so in the meantime, our blood sugar can go high from excess amino acids being turned into sugar.<br /><br />In younger people, the insulin response system is intact, so the excess glucose that results from gluconeogenesis is driven out of the blood and into the cells rather efficiently. As we get older or start into type 2 diabetes, the pancreas is not able to control the level of the newly-synthesized glucose as well and blood sugars will rise, even though we may only have been eating protein and fat.<br /><br />Type 1 diabetics know that they have to cover the protein they eat with insulin. Type 2 diabetics often are not aware of this. If they are eating more protein and making more glucose than their pancreas can deal with, type 2's may be able to cut protein back to the amount they need for good health. A calculator can be found <a href="http://www.phlaunt.com/lowcarb/19058429.php" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Its estimates do tend to run a bit high, but it will give you a good starting point.<br /><br />As far as carbs, they should be divided among about three meals a day and should consist of low-carb vegetables rather than products like low-carb bread or bars. Sugar alcohols and glycerin eventually release all of their listed carbs, so net carbs are not the freebie we were once led to believe. Even fiber will release about half of its calories as carbs by the time it reaches the end of the digestive system. How many carbs to eat? Twenty <i>total</i> carbs a day is probably a good place to start.<br /><br />The remaining calories for the day need to consist of fat. One excellent source is coconut oil. It stores at room temperature and it is easy to measure. It is safe for cooking and can even be melted right on top of cuts of meat if the meat tends to be lean.<br /><br />As I said, read the posts and the comments in this section of the blog and you should get a better idea of what is going on. For one last reference, try <a href="http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/2008/10/reactive-hypoglycemia-experiment.html" rel="nofollow">this one</a>. The three-legged stool approach seems to work for those who are moving into diabetes.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-77733056578672232552009-08-30T08:38:15.639-05:002009-08-30T08:38:15.639-05:00I am a diab2. I have a PhD in holistic health. I h...I am a diab2. I have a PhD in holistic health. I have lost 100 pounds and kept it off over 10 years. When my blood sugars could no longer be controlled by my diet, VLC, I went no carb in hopes to lower my baseline. It was running in excess of 140 on no carbs. I could not understand it. I was on the couch 24-7 feeling terrible. I have been looking for an explanation for years. Today I googled and was led to this site. So now what do I do to correct this high baseline. add carbs? How much? High fiber things like bran raise my blood sugar. What is too much protein?cleorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03417199794736017601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-81844879216382243892009-08-19T12:14:18.950-05:002009-08-19T12:14:18.950-05:00Your blog is so helpful! I discovered it today, an...Your blog is so helpful! I discovered it today, and am so thankful.<br /><br />I'm in the 60+ crowd and have been eating 35-40 carbs a day for at least two years--for BG, not weight. I'm on the thin side. <br /><br />Over the past several months, my numbers have been higher than previous, both post-meal and fasting. I haven't been able to figure out why and it really concerns me.<br /><br />Maybe it's the protein? (I hope, I hope) I've recorded my meals for years, so it's easy to check. Thanks.jacquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03254885498063168754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-4458486517656878542009-07-27T20:01:33.880-05:002009-07-27T20:01:33.880-05:00PJ, thanks for that. Did you happen to measure you...PJ, thanks for that. Did you happen to measure your blood sugars (fasting and/or postprandial) at any time during your VLC experiment? Is it possible that the reason you felt like crap was that you were eating too much protein and raising your blood sugars as a result?Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-65299590928554711362009-07-27T19:43:27.561-05:002009-07-27T19:43:27.561-05:00I ate VLC and lost weight on it, and often was as ...I ate VLC and lost weight on it, and often was as close to ZC as you can get if you're still counting things like garlic and spices and butter etc. Initially VLC worked wonders for me and weight fell off me. Eventually I was not only not losing weight but I felt absolutely like crap, I mean terrible. And I got reactive hypoglycemia even on solid protein breakfasts which I had not before. (Curiously right around the time J Moore was blogging about the same effect.) Eventually when I tried adding more carbs into my diet, I could not believe how much better I felt, how much more energy I had and so on. Thing is, the near-zero-carb did not bother me at first though it did later. So I don't there is any objective measure of it being just good or bad. And maybe not even a measure of it being good or bad for a person since with me, it changed as my body changed.PJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391277875371518678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-71272653112218950782009-07-21T12:49:29.991-05:002009-07-21T12:49:29.991-05:00Amber, if you read my response very carefully, you...Amber, if you read my response very carefully, you'll realize that your question wasn't off-topic at all.<br /><br />Didirina's comment shows that people can use all sorts of rationalizations to avoid accepting the science that is staring them right in the face.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-89103643445752286862009-07-21T12:44:15.893-05:002009-07-21T12:44:15.893-05:00Docs should also get rid of their neckties.
http:...Docs should also get rid of their neckties.<br /><br />http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn5029-doctors-ties-harbour-diseasecausing-germs.html<br /><br />A relative of mine is a nurse and wears her uniforms home from the hospital. Her small children are now fighting MRSA, have had numerous boils and infections that they've needed surgery and hospitalization for, yet she insists, "MRSA is everywhere."Didirinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10600207452839363505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-12707319800418773222009-07-21T09:28:02.380-05:002009-07-21T09:28:02.380-05:00Sorry it was a stupidly off topic question. I am n...Sorry it was a stupidly off topic question. I am not sure why but a post on a forum about that person never getting sick so they didn't need to wash their hands really got my goat. It seemed so unfeeling. I would be horrified if I passed something onto someone, knowing that something like washing my hands could have stopped it. My partner had a foot infection (nearly lost his foot) and MRSA, and people who don't wash their hands cos they won't get sick really annoys me. Society is less about me me me , but also about looking out for the sick and weak.<br /><br />Sorry I will get off my high horse now.<br /><br />I am still looking about for LC/VLC health based web site if anyone knows of any???Amberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14930974457824684445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-29863219754666222912009-07-21T08:53:37.547-05:002009-07-21T08:53:37.547-05:00Historically #2 is the most correct, Amber. As man...Historically #2 is the most correct, Amber. As many as 16% of women died from puerperal fever, a septic infection acquired when doctors examined many women and did autopsies in their free time while women were in labor. At the time "experience" showed that it was obviously unnecessary for doctors to wash their hands between patients and to avoid doing autopsies while working in the labor and delivery room.<br /><br />In the mid-1800's Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr. and Ignaz Semmelweis suggested that handwashing could alleviate the problem. They were ridiculed by their colleagues. In 1879 Louis Pasteur showed that streptococcus was present in the blood of women with puerperal fever. Women continued to die until the turn of the century when aseptic technique was finally accepted as standard practice.<br /><br />Yes, medical professionals are very careful to avoid spreading contamination.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-39466590428276428362009-07-21T08:00:22.151-05:002009-07-21T08:00:22.151-05:00Sorry this is a little off topic.
When we was our...Sorry this is a little off topic.<br /><br />When we was our hands. We do it for two reasons surely? 1) to not catch anything our selves 2) to not spread disease (we can carry even if we don't get it surely?)<br /><br />Sorry I read an edit just now and it make me very angry. I stopped myself posting as I will get flamed. But I wondered if #2 above was the case. After all its why doctors wash their hands surely? I would hate to not wash my hands and spread disease to a susceptible person and they get sick!Amberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14930974457824684445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-51663321608649484442009-07-20T09:24:52.968-05:002009-07-20T09:24:52.968-05:00Amber, yes there are calories and carbs in some fo...Amber, yes there are calories and carbs in some forms of fiber. If the fiber is composed of extremely long, branched chains of glucose, the digestive system can remove some of the glucose molecules at the free ends of the chains. It won't have a significant glycemic index, but depending on how efficient your digestive system is, some types of fiber can slowly be broken down into a certain amount of glucose.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-38137929893761439192009-07-20T09:00:33.490-05:002009-07-20T09:00:33.490-05:00In new scientist this week the cover article is on...In new scientist this week the cover article is on the food labels - mainly that the calorie count isn't as accurate as it could be. Now they actually end up arguing over piffling amounts to be honest. But they say that fibre should change from 2kcal/g to 1.5kcal/g. So they think there is some energy to be derived in there, and presumably some carbs?Amberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14930974457824684445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-38498541808178247012009-07-19T21:23:41.116-05:002009-07-19T21:23:41.116-05:00Hi, Rafonly. I looked up the term "sugar burn...Hi, Rafonly. I looked up the term "sugar burner" and oddly enough, most of the sites that mentioned it were selling something. Most of the cells in our body contain the enzymes for the TCA cycle and oxidative phosphorylation. Both pathways are nicely designed to run on fatty acids or ketones or glucose or even all three, depending on the food we eat. If we eat carbs, they run on sugar (glucose). If we eat fat, they run on fatty acids and ketones. All the people who gave me blood sugar data were at least doing low-carb, meaning that they had very little glucose available to burn compared with the amount of fat they were eating.<br /><br />As far as leptin resistance, that's a rather complicated topic that I can't address right now. I wrote about it <a href="http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/2008/08/leptin-resistance-i.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> and <a href="http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/2008/08/leptin-resistance-ii.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> if you would like to get a somewhat-simplified version of how it works.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-65086477488804179712009-07-19T21:00:01.351-05:002009-07-19T21:00:01.351-05:00"Friday's menu would have been excellent ..."Friday's menu would have been excellent to test, b/c it was more like his typical menus than what he's been eating since the beginning of July."<br /><br />I agree. Its a shame he started testing a menu that wasn't his regular fare.Suehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03181442844616803097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-56120843111640587372009-07-19T18:45:09.789-05:002009-07-19T18:45:09.789-05:00hello stargazey & all:
~ perhaps supertasters...hello stargazey & all:<br /><br />~ perhaps supertasters (jm & others) tend to be leptin resistant (thereby 'sugar burners')?<br />~ perhaps people over 50 (lex & others) tend to be leptin resistant (thereby 'sugar burners')?<br /><br />{please ignore my ignorance}rafonlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04829035994713984800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-6101356640237474222009-07-19T16:41:11.513-05:002009-07-19T16:41:11.513-05:00These comments are taking on a life of their own i...These comments are taking on a life of their own in some ways.<br /><br />If anybody makes it to the bottom of this list, I'd like to state here that the reason I initiated this project was that Vickie came to me in confidence at the end of June. She told me that after she started zero-carbing (fatty meat and water only), she began to have a return of symptoms of neuropathy and heart palpitations. Before she started low-carbing, she was diagnosed as pre-diabetic. She had had symptoms of neuropathy, but learned that she could hold these symptoms in abeyance if she kept her blood sugars rose under 120. Because they seldom rose above 110 when she did low-carb, she was mystified that they began to return when she did Zero Carb. She began taking her blood glucose values and was astonished to find that they went as high as 155 one hour after she ate a ribeye steak.<br /><br />Her question to me was, <i>Is it possible to eat too much protein and raise blood glucose as a result?</i><br /><br />At that time I had been doing something between ZC and VLC myself, so I checked my own blood glucose. Normally it runs in the mid-80's. But I discovered that my fasting value was over 100 and my blood glucose after meals went as high as 140. Clearly, Vickie wasn't just imagining things.<br /><br />Both she and I were reluctant to try to discuss this on the ZIOH board, so we did it in another venue. We came up with the idea of an informal survey to see whether eating lots of meat can affect the blood glucose of people over 50 and/or under 50. From the numbers we have collected so far, it appears that for some people, it can.<br /><br />Vickie acknowledges that the specific effects she has suffered are not typical. There may be people who can benefit from a Zero Carb plan. However, people need to be aware that there are also inherent dangers in undertaking such a plan because the science that might prove or disprove it is very incomplete at this time.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-75623640706938948772009-07-19T10:52:22.957-05:002009-07-19T10:52:22.957-05:00OhYeahBabe, I thought the same thing, but I didn&#...OhYeahBabe, I thought the same thing, but I didn't want to irk Jimmy by bringing it up. This test is going very well, and I didn't want to dampen his enthusiasm. Friday's menu would have been excellent to test, b/c it was more like his typical menus than what he's been eating since the beginning of July. I would have been particularly interested to see his numbers after eating the Dreamfields noodles.OnPointhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12004246828850540138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-84536957720422257332009-07-19T08:07:50.917-05:002009-07-19T08:07:50.917-05:00He has been eating fewer desserts than he was in M...He has been eating fewer desserts than he was in May/June. It would be interesting to see how he does when he eats his more normal menu with the pizza toppings and the higher frequency of desserts. I hate to encourage that even for experimenting, though, because I think this way is better and may at least stop the gaining.OhYeahBabehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18233544200400642335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-61728619476596459492009-07-18T22:23:17.203-05:002009-07-18T22:23:17.203-05:00Stargazey:
I did notice the 21-pt BS drop after J...Stargazey:<br /><br />I did notice the 21-pt BS drop after Jimmy drank a diet soda in the morning on an empty stomach. I think this added a lot of legitimacy to your hypothesis about insulin response in super-tasters.<br /><br />I also noticed how Jimmy's BS seemed to climb after eating his ice cream desserts. A few times, he showed readings slightly over 100. This helped explain the discrepancy between the numbers Jimmy had been mostly getting since beginning this experiment and his most recent A1C.<br /><br />I'm also beginning to think it's valid to subtract fiber from the carb total (based on JM being unaffected BS-wise by his bread consumption) while sugar alcohols may be very problematic (ice cream).<br /><br />I am finding this BS testing experiment very informative, and I'm glad you were generous enough to provide the tools. <br /><br />This was a brilliant idea!OnPointhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12004246828850540138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-87272553681635154292009-07-18T21:01:30.280-05:002009-07-18T21:01:30.280-05:00Thanx LindaThanx LindaVickie Ewellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933461203986015406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-13019826846134591202009-07-18T17:13:01.911-05:002009-07-18T17:13:01.911-05:00For an example of what you can get amongst the tru...For an example of what you can get amongst the true ZC believers, Google <b>Charles</b> and <b>"phallic insulin response"</b> in quotes (no kidding). Charles is intelligent and writes very well, but sometimes he just misses the science completely. In the Over-50 thread he confused the triglyceride/fatty acid cycle with the Krebs Cycle. When you don't know the science, his writing sounds plausible enough. But when you <i>do know the science</i>, the pockets of ignorance can sometimes be breathtaking.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.com