tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post1725606539667913624..comments2022-09-25T22:30:29.822-05:00Comments on Low-Carb for You: Low-Food-Reward versus Low-CarbStargazeyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-69608115356881914732011-11-16T15:01:06.820-06:002011-11-16T15:01:06.820-06:00Strong work Stargazey!
:)Strong work Stargazey!<br /><br />:)Asclepiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14604117979253596512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-18511868380680004922011-11-07T00:50:16.453-06:002011-11-07T00:50:16.453-06:00David/Stargaazey,
I don't think that food rew...David/Stargaazey,<br /><br />I don't think that food reward is the chimera to be slain, but I do think that it plays a role. It simply adds a compulsion to eat to an already compulsion to eat lifestyle. Stephan may be stretching its role to have something to research about.<br /><br />Think about alcohol and food reward: you eat more when drinking. The reward part of the brain gets short-circuited by alcohol (not including beer), and the binge may begin - hell, maybe not even a binge, but you will be "feeling" hunger, ie food reward. Sugar probably does the same thing, as does most carbs for those of us that are sensitive.<br /><br />It (food reward) is just not the main thing to focus on, in my opinion.<br /><br />-AlCoachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07108014237791854719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-22679977332904790712011-11-06T07:16:23.015-06:002011-11-06T07:16:23.015-06:00David, your observations on physicians being led b...David, your observations on physicians being led by the ADA, the AHA and pharmaceutical publications may be more true than I'd like to admit. My husband and his friends think as I've described, but that is certainly not true of every doctor. The constant threat of lawsuits also encourages physicians to adopt a more uniformitarian approach, to make it to easier to defend themselves (if necessary) in a court of law.<br /><br />The rest of your comments also make very good points, particularly the circular argument idea. If you gain weight while eating a particular food, by definition it must be high reward. How convenient. It proves the theory and removes the need for high-cost scientific trials. On an individual level, it can account for every anecdotal experience that either contradicts or supports the theory. Brilliant!Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-37305332892751619812011-11-04T11:31:59.781-05:002011-11-04T11:31:59.781-05:00Good to see you back in cyberspace! I'd like t...Good to see you back in cyberspace! I'd like to quibble with one observation, though:<br /><br />"MDs in active practice will tend to gravitate toward approaches that are successful for their patients..."<br /><br />How I wish that were true. In a few exceptional cases--like the individuals you list--it might be an accurate assessment, but it seems to me that most MDs keep recommending whatever the AHA or ADA or the Pharma companies have told them to recommend. <br /><br />Most MDs seem to me to have lost their capacity for critical thought somewhere during medical school.<br /><br />As to the low-food-reward vs low-carb issue, in a practical sense, if both worked, why would anyone prefer to live a live of low reward?<br /><br />I believe the food-reward hypothesis is circular. (One of my friends gained a lot of his weight on pita bread dipped in unflavored hummus, which is about as bland as you can get. Ah, but the carbs themselves must have been "high-reward," then!)<br /><br />The argument seems to take this form:<br /><br />1) Obesity is caused by overeating, which is caused by high-reward foods.<br /><br />2) Whatever foods are overeaten are high-reward foods for the obese person. <br /><br />3) Overeating is whatever behavior is exhibited by those who are obese.<br /><br />I don't find this stand to be terribly helpful. Or even testable.David Isaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04928598446742324391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-78655954727827182212011-10-25T04:54:27.405-05:002011-10-25T04:54:27.405-05:00Hej there, great article.
Your comparison with co...Hej there, great article.<br /><br />Your comparison with cocain isn't particularly valid. Its better to use marijuana as an example.<br /><br />THC is xtremely potent binging agent. As it binds to CB1 in the brain the same as anandamide which promotes food intake apart from blissful state, and it binds with higher affinity to it, we can deduce from both observational and physiological points that its not good idea to use marijuana for weight loss. Marijuana addicted people, if such thing exists, will not raid the city for another dose.<br /><br />Some foods probably upregulate endocanabionid system, PUFA is the primer suspect. <br /><br />So, there is definitely something going on here. Is it dominant ? I don't know, it might be for some people. Would low carb help? Probably, for bunch of other reasons.majkinetorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09268214549525093107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-27495520976053861502011-09-17T20:58:38.477-05:002011-09-17T20:58:38.477-05:00Stargazey,
Haha. But I do have to apologize for i...Stargazey,<br /><br />Haha. But I do have to apologize for inserting words into your mouth, as it were.<br /><br />That comment was brought over from Peter's comment section, where Dr. Harris continued to remind me that just because I highly respect his work, intelligence, and contributions, I can still despise the shit of the person. I don't like being looked at down one's nose, which he has done to me and other readers on many occasions. <br /><br />But I again apologize, for bringing unnecessary baggage to your blog - nuff said about Dr. Harris. <br /><br />And your welcome for the laugh ; )<br /><br />-AlCoachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07108014237791854719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-27136994834823493232011-09-17T13:10:00.688-05:002011-09-17T13:10:00.688-05:00Exactly so, Exceptionally Brash.
By the way, I w...Exactly so, Exceptionally Brash. <br /><br />By the way, I went over to your blog and enjoyed the visit. I tried to leave a comment but for some reason, over there Blogger has no idea who I am and won't accept my comments. The deep wisdom of Google at work, no doubt.<br /><br />Also, berto, a belated thank you for your "translation" of my comment to Kurt G. Harris <b>MD</b>. I laughed out loud for quite a while when I read it.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-51184980896677296712011-09-16T23:38:02.665-05:002011-09-16T23:38:02.665-05:00@stargazey, what the food reward hypothesis fails ...@stargazey, what the food reward hypothesis fails to take into account is when carb-burning becomes the norm, and appetite increases, people will eat all sorts of craptastic food to get the carbs out of it. So the idea of reducing that behavior by leaving off the salt and spices is simply ridiculous. Sure, it is easier to eat a box of donuts over a bag of flour, but only because donuts are easy and ubiquitous.Exceptionally Brashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13177479330600606059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-32502173460307913242011-09-15T16:39:09.372-05:002011-09-15T16:39:09.372-05:00Well, things keep getting more confusing rather th...Well, things keep getting more confusing rather than less the more I read up on low carb. And, ha, don't you see the joke? For a carb lover/addict a low carb diet IS a low-food-reward diet. Ha. Kind of funny but kind of not. In my experience low carb eating has done away with the overwhelming urge to eat carbs.... but society and traditions and plain old comfort food desires make carb foods high reward for me at times.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-59008813398376911932011-09-15T12:35:28.879-05:002011-09-15T12:35:28.879-05:00@Christopher, thanks for the link to your blog. Ju...@Christopher, thanks for the link to your blog. Just a technical comment. The <a href="http://www.engrevo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/LC.jpg" rel="nofollow">figure</a> you show is from the article <a href="http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0708681#t=articleTop" rel="nofollow">Weight Loss with a Low-Carbohydrate, Mediterranean, or Low-Fat Diet.</a> What is not mentioned is that "The low-carbohydrate, non–restricted-calorie diet aimed to provide 20 g of carbohydrates per day for the 2-month induction phase and immediately after religious holidays, <b>with a gradual increase to a maximum of 120 g per day to maintain the weight loss</b>." (Bolding mine.) There was no comparable increase in calories with the Low-Fat Diet group or with the Mediterranean Diet group. It is not surprising therefore that the Low-Carb group gained weight after the first five months of the study. What does surprise me is that this lack of equivalent adjustments in the diets got past the referees.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-1687746931709661622011-09-15T10:32:19.394-05:002011-09-15T10:32:19.394-05:00@ Christopher, good points. I'll try to answer...@ Christopher, good points. I'll try to answer them briefly.<br /><br />1. Regarding Kitavans, my hypothesis is that the main reason they are not obese is that their high carbohydrate diet is mostly tubers rather than flour and sugar. I have also heard a report that they typically only eat one meal a day. Both factors would mean that if their insulin went up as a result of carbs from tubers, the rise and fall would be slow and the peak would be relatively low. Once nutrients were stored, they would be able to return to a low basal insulin level and switch to efficient use of their endogenous fat stores (and occasionally glycogen) for energy.<br /><br />2. Denise Minger is an excellent example of my belief that the truth of an idea should rise or fall on its own merits, not on the basis of the CV of the person who presents the idea. I presented the contrast between PhD and MD training because many of my readers have not experienced that training and don't understand that in a broad sense, these people tend to approach scientific problems in different ways. That may be why Stephan and Peter (who is a vet) seem to look at similar data in very different ways. Both approaches are valid, but both approaches also have their limitations.<br /><br />3. I don't dispute that people can lose weight if they do low-fat/low-calorie diets. See <a href="http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/2010/10/insulin-sensitivity-affects-weight-loss.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> for a discussion. However, once insulin resistance sets in, particularly when people have a difficult time switching from burning carbs to burning fats, it becomes very difficult to control one's appetite. The drive to use carbs as fuel causes susceptible people to eat carbs about every two hours so they don't have to make the difficult metabolic switch to fat burning.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-58180837383578474362011-09-14T15:03:22.587-05:002011-09-14T15:03:22.587-05:00Well put, glad to see you writing again. I really...Well put, glad to see you writing again. I really like your point about the role of researchers and how it shapes their perception. Brings to mind the tale of the blind men who find the elephant, and each thinks the part of the elephant they can feel IS the elephant.Apolloswabbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10048632865194585592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-80240994990828894822011-09-14T13:42:20.874-05:002011-09-14T13:42:20.874-05:00John,
I feel you on that idea.
But it's not ...John,<br /><br />I feel you on that idea.<br /><br />But it's not that rodent experiments (or any non-human experiments, for that matter) should be meaningless, they should supplement rather than form the theories that seem to be defended with zest. The data derived from such studies need to support concepts that are applicable to humans, and not have paradigm shifts based off of them.<br /><br />This is why I believe that an ex-obese researcher who has experienced weight loss/gain and the finally has their weight and hunger under control would take rodent studies with a grain of salt. A researcher not equipped with this experience simply follows the raw numbers, without trying to dovetail this acquired inner knowledge with the observations of rats.<br /><br />-AlCoachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07108014237791854719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-78775039081634665542011-09-14T13:19:37.353-05:002011-09-14T13:19:37.353-05:00I wanted to keep this comment separate so that if ...I wanted to keep this comment separate so that if you choose to moderate out my link, the rest of my thoughts won't be moderated out as well. I wrote a blog post of my own - similar to this one, just advocating on the other side: http://www.engrevo.com/blog/food-reward-vs-carbohydrate-hypotheses-of-obesity/<br /><br />Further support for the points in my other comment is provided there.<br /><br />Regardless of which theory you ascribe to, the debate has certainly resulted in lots of interesting discussion.Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11086646975913944935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-17619568222772346332011-09-14T13:16:04.286-05:002011-09-14T13:16:04.286-05:00A paleo diet is macronutrient-agnostic, as is a lo...A paleo diet is macronutrient-agnostic, as is a low-reward diet. You could construct a 100% fat diet that is very low-reward.<br /><br />Here's my problems with your problems:<br /><br />1. If carbohydrate causes insulin resistance, why aren't Kitavans insulin resistant? If insulin resistance is a necessary condition for obesity, why aren't all obese people insulin resistant?<br /><br />2. One's training should not be a consideration when assessing the quality of their ideas. Think Denise Minger.<br /><br />3. The reward hypothesis explains how people can lose weight on low-fat diets, which the CHO can't explain at all. Also, a low-carb diet is often a lower-reward diet than the previous diet, so both hypotheses predict weight loss on a low-carb diet (in most cases).Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11086646975913944935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-2241136591266488272011-09-14T12:20:23.212-05:002011-09-14T12:20:23.212-05:00I am constantly amazed how the science of rodents ...I am constantly amazed how the science of rodents and feeding somehow means anything to a neurobiologist writing a blog series on humans.johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11126132841611727249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-46596943402722104622011-09-13T06:38:57.135-05:002011-09-13T06:38:57.135-05:00It was hyperbole.It was hyperbole.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-3192643713694249912011-09-13T00:51:14.085-05:002011-09-13T00:51:14.085-05:00People who are addicted to ciggies aren't like...People who are addicted to ciggies aren't likely to mug or murder for them. Are you really using that as a basis to define addiction?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-57857512451840232182011-09-12T18:53:57.615-05:002011-09-12T18:53:57.615-05:00Hi Stargazey,
Another great post! I really enjoy ...Hi Stargazey,<br /><br />Another great post! I really enjoy your blog, keep up the good work!Drew Stearnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06921821698938219378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-10725599533050954592011-09-08T22:15:37.237-05:002011-09-08T22:15:37.237-05:00Thanks Berto, and I, or someone like me, was invit...Thanks Berto, and I, or someone like me, was invited too. Not gonna get in the middle of that mess though! I am sure I will not qualify for internet pal status. (and no, you aren't a homie)<br /> One thing that Dr. Harris and itsthewoo2 can heartily agree on is that some people really do need to get a life. Ha ha.Exceptionally Brashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13177479330600606059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-50651780932077939192011-09-08T14:14:34.312-05:002011-09-08T14:14:34.312-05:00Brash,
I hope that I am not a considered a homie ...Brash,<br /><br />I hope that I am not a considered a homie ;)... (though it seems that I have been invited to be one).<br /><br />I can't stand being talked down to by those who think their sh*t doesn't stink and when called on it, they either put the blame on another, or another's thought process. If you're gonna be brash, then be Brash!<br /><br />I just found your blog this past weekend and have thoroughly enjoyed reading through the archives. I like the wit in your writing. Keep it up.<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />-AlCoachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07108014237791854719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-3323528035357232052011-09-08T12:38:22.797-05:002011-09-08T12:38:22.797-05:00LOL, Exceptionally Brash! The homies bother me, to...LOL, Exceptionally Brash! The homies bother me, too. If an argument is valid, I like to hope that it will stand or fall of its own weight, not based on the loyal comments of a set of fans.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-23102967716828147162011-09-08T10:52:44.940-05:002011-09-08T10:52:44.940-05:00I went on over to hyperlipid to see the latest, an...I went on over to hyperlipid to see the latest, and wow, the conversation sure had deteriorated! The arrogance, astounding! Let us be thankful that not only do we have a new obesity hypothesis, we have new definitions of accuracy and precision by the good doctors' homies and wannabees.<br />I am sure we will all sleep safely tonight sure that the knowledge is advancing. I feel thinner already.Exceptionally Brashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13177479330600606059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-74867623050313569802011-09-07T20:31:20.231-05:002011-09-07T20:31:20.231-05:00Thank you so much for your post. I especially lik...Thank you so much for your post. I especially liked your contrast between researchers and clinicians. I tend to go with the clinicians first, since I am a big fan of N=1 data. Goodness knows, someone in a clinic has lots of access to data. That is why, even though I don't agree with all the data that someone like Dr. Davis shows, I have no doubt that his data from actual patients is priceless.Exceptionally Brashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13177479330600606059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7890604293949783916.post-58370671739225184102011-09-07T07:24:14.084-05:002011-09-07T07:24:14.084-05:00Very well stated, berto.
I wasn't really in h...Very well stated, berto.<br /><br />I wasn't really in hibernation, by the way. I just couldn't think of anything helpful that I wanted to write about. Then this controversy came up, but I couldn't crystallize my thoughts properly until Peter wrote what he did. He has both a humorous and an understandable way of expressing himself, and it finally clicked for me. Best wishes on your health education work!Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.com